What is beyond Newton's and Einstein's discoveries?

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Boris Lagutin

What is beyond Newton's and Einstein's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

What is a base for Newton's and Einstein's discoveries? Why do the laws discovered by them work? Why do we use only Length and Time (just Length's variation) to explore the world? Whether our understanding of the reality would change if we used other cognitive categories other than Length and its derivatives like Time, distance, size etc.? Would we build principally other technologies by using other metrics?
Last edited by Boris Lagutin on Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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joe
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Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by joe »

In one sense, they work (to the extent that they do) because they are descriptions, or rather: they are generalisations from many observations. Generations of researchers make successively more general descriptions. e.g.
- all objects fall down.
- all objects less dense than air fall down
- all objects less dense than air and with less kinetic energy per unit mass than an escape value fall down

Length and time are also descriptive. My favourite book on this is Ian Hinkfuss: "Space, time and language"
These descriptions don't work at the Planck scale
http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlig ... Planck.htm

Joe
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

Thank you, Joe. I am talking of cognitive means to explore and describe the world. Yes. All objects fall down in according to gravity. We see it but how we describe and explore it. We can use length (separation method: we separate space into imaginary pieces). If I don't mistake all Newton's mechanics and calculus are built on length and, if it is possible to say, so-called its derivatives (distance, time etc.). Sometimes I reason of why don't try to explore and describe different real processes by using other means different from length and its so-called "derivatives". Learning the Special Theory of Relativity I got some intuitive thoughts about that.
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Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by joe »

Physicists (and engineers etc) measure ratios.
For length, it's usually obvious how to do this – for example using a ruler.
For time, also obvious: count swings of a pendulum etc.

If you want to start with other quantities as your foundation, and if you want your science to depend on measurement, you need to think what your units will be and how you will measure ratios.

If you don't want to measure ratios, then I think that your enterprise is unlikely to be called physics. But in any case, you would need to be at least a little bit specific.

Joe
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

Unfortunately, now I don't have something specific. As I said before I just got some insights about that. I asked myself about why we use length and its derivatives to explore and describe the world. Moreover, we model systems in scientific sense by using length and its derivatives. I am very new in science. Just about 1 year ago, I first started to seriously learn physics and mathematics, including elementary school mathematics.
In terms of ratio I think we could use other methods to describe natural occurrences. To be honest, I have strongly liked Einstein's special theory of Relativity and I suppose that something special is hidden there. Something that we cannot understand by using length and its derivatives. Something that is related to Systems' relativity. Really I cannot say what exactly yet. It's some kind of intuitive feeling. I need more knowledge of physics and mathematics. I have just begun to "feel" mathematics and understand physics.
Last edited by Boris Lagutin on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

By contemplating one can see that the world exists independently of people. We can perceive and explore the world by only our organs of perception and forms of reasoning. In this way we see and perceive the world such as it is "reflected" by our organs of perception. Also we analyze it by our forms of reasoning. To sum up, we never see and perceive the world as it is itself. It is absolutely impossible for us and for any creature so we are limited by our organs of perception and forms of reasoning.
It took me a plenty of time to think of why mathematics works to describe processes happening in the world and build technologies. It seems to be a very interesting question. However, mathematics helps us to describe nature not at all cases.
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Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by joe »

Try
https://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/MathDra ... igner.html

I can't speak for mathematics, but I suspect that Physics as a discipline is prepared to be judged by its results
Joe
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

Yes. I totally agree with you, Joe. Because of that I rely on experiments more than on theoretical constructions. However, the problem of results' description is important too, as I understood.
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

Thank you very much for the link. I have read it with a good interest. :)
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

As I understood there is a suggestion that Higgs bosons can somehow cause objects (masses) constant speeds. However, what may cause their straight-line movement in outer space (no other objects interactions)? Someone can say that it's clear that everything should move at a straight line if there are no other interactions. Let me mind. I ask such a question:"Maybe we just got used to think so?" Very often things (occurrences) that we are used to are considered by us as natural and we don't ask ourselves why they go so... What causes objects to move specially at a straight line when there are not any interactions on these objects? "The structure of the world is so" - good answer? Maybe I mistake? :?:
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Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by joe »

I don't understand what you are saying, but perhaps you are asking "Why does an object that doesn't interact with its surroundings travel in a straight line?" In other words "Why is Newton's first law true?". Symmetry is one possible answer: if it curves one way, then why that way? (The laws of our universe are symmetric in many different ways.)

Joe
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

Thank you very much, Joe. Yes, possible the answer to my question is Symmetry but I don't understand it yet. I have not learnt it yet. Some days ago I started reading Textbook on Physics and immediately began contemplating about conceptions written there :)
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

Hello Joe,

I have recently watched a video narrating about a famous dispute between Niels Bohr and Albert Einstein. This dispute concerns their different views about what the reality is. I am not English native and I think I could not understand the pith of the dispute exactly. If I understood right Einstein claimed that the world is independent of human beings and their methods of research but Bohr claimed that people somehow build the reality or understanding of the reality around them by means which they use to explore the world, in other words, methods to make experiments influence these experiments results?! :?:

Could you clarify what their dispute was exactly about? Could you advise me some links to resources where I may read about this dispute?

Thanks a lot.
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Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by joe »

I think that the main point of contention between Bohr and Einstein concerned the probabilistic nature of quantum measurements. e.g. a system set up in a particular way might yield one answer 50% of the time and another for the rest.

Bohr argued that nature was inherently probabilistic. Einstein argued for hidden variables: that there were unknown but deterministic variables and that we merely observed random cases. Einstein and colleauges Podolsky and Rosen even proposed an experiment to decide between the two world views. This experiment,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_paradox
and many others, have now been undertaken and the verdict is pretty clear: Bohr was right and Einstein was wrong. Some say that Einstein was the last classical physics (relativity is very classical).

I don't know of any really easy introduction to this. It's tricky stuff.

Joe
Boris Lagutin

Re: What is beyond Newton's and Einsteins's discoveries?

Post by Boris Lagutin »

Thank you very much, Joe. Your explanation and the link are very useful for me. However, I feel that I don't have enough knowledge to explore this. This topic seems to be very interesting for me. I will try to completely understand it step by step during my studying of physics. Truly saying, now I am actively learning Calculus and last month I have already reached multi-variable calculus, numerical integration, non-autonomous differential equations etc. By now I have mostly concentrated on learning mathematics, only since December 2014 I will start to read a physics textbook (my first physics book to be read).

Have a nice week.
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